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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 10, 2013, 9:53 pm
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by DaviddesJ

ira212 wrote:

Analyzing a card and making a decision about its power level feels reasonable to me as a game designer and an experienced player of this game.


Sure. But the problem is that everyone (at least in every given game) has to use one interpretation. It doesn't make sense for you to use one interpretation because you think the card is weak, and someone else to use a different interpretation because they think the card is strong. So, it seems to me, we can base a general ruling about the card (in part) on a general consensus about how good the card is, but we can't base a general ruling on your particular individual opinion about how good the card is.

The issue is the word "them," in the sentence, "Place them either on the top or bottom..." Does "them" mean "each card individually" or "both cards together."


I think this is essentially unambiguous in English (unlike "or", which can either be inclusive or exclusive). "Place" is a verb and "them" is the direct object. The thing to be placed is "them." If the rules wanted you to perform a separate placement operation for each card, they could say something like "place each of them."
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 11, 2013, 1:45 am
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by Rainstar

tumorous wrote:

(Your balance preferences don't change what the rules are.)


He was using interpretation of game balance to try to understand an ambiguous card, not stating his preference.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 13, 2013, 4:37 pm
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by Pirate Penguin

Quick question that came up during a game yesterday concerning the Norowas skill 'Leadership' which states:

Once a turn: When activating a Unit, add +3 to its Block, or +2 to its Attack. or +1 to its Ranged (not Siege) Attack, regardless of its elements.

So say the unit I am activating has 'Fire Block 3'. Would using this ability confer a 'Fire Block 6' to the unit? Would it be 'Fire Block 3 + Physical Block 3'? Or perhaps just 'Block 6'?

Sorry if this has been answered, I did not read through all 46 pages.

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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 13, 2013, 5:24 pm
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by ira212

Pirate Penguin wrote:

Quick question that came up during a game yesterday concerning the Norowas skill 'Leadership' which states:

Once a turn: When activating a Unit, add +3 to its Block, or +2 to its Attack. or +1 to its Ranged (not Siege) Attack, regardless of its elements.

So say the unit I am activating has 'Fire Block 3'. Would using this ability confer a 'Fire Block 6' to the unit? Would it be 'Fire Block 3 + Physical Block 3'? Or perhaps just 'Block 6'?

Sorry if this has been answered, I did not read through all 46 pages.


Fire Block 6!
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 14, 2013, 4:23 am
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by Pirate Penguin

ira212 wrote:

Pirate Penguin wrote:

Quick question that came up during a game yesterday concerning the Norowas skill 'Leadership' which states:

Once a turn: When activating a Unit, add +3 to its Block, or +2 to its Attack. or +1 to its Ranged (not Siege) Attack, regardless of its elements.

So say the unit I am activating has 'Fire Block 3'. Would using this ability confer a 'Fire Block 6' to the unit? Would it be 'Fire Block 3 + Physical Block 3'? Or perhaps just 'Block 6'?

Sorry if this has been answered, I did not read through all 46 pages.


Fire Block 6!


Thank you! I guess I overanalyzed the 'regardless of its elements' part of the description. That makes for a very powerful mid-to-late game skill! I must admit, I underestimated Norowas.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 16, 2013, 7:09 am
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by twibs

karel_danek wrote:


Uhtoff wrote:

When you level up and get a skill am I right in saying you have two options, you either-
a. Choose one of the top two skills from your own pile putting the unwanted one in the middle and a choice of any available Advanced Action
b. Choose someone else's skill from the middle, put both of your drawn skills in the middle and take the lowest Advanced Action

The subtitle of 'Learning from Other Players' made me think that option b might be done at a completely different time (though I don't really believe it!).


Nope, only during your level up. It just makes your options wider.


Slight continuation to this one. The way I interpreted the text is as follows

So when you level up you:
A: choose 1 skill from the offer (non monastery cards), replenishing the offer AND Take 2 skill tokens from the pile, choose one and put the other to the common pool.
B: choose 1 skill from the offer (non monastery cards), replenishing the offer AND Refuse the skill tokens and instead take 1 from common pool, and ADDITIONALLY (as said in the rulebook) take the lowest advanced action from the offer.

Not quite sure when the offer is replenished, but it doesn't really affect this since the one chosen is the lowest.

The thing that made me think it's like this is the word 'ADDITIONALLY'. The common pool usually has weaker skills since they were not chosen, but on the other hand they could fit your needs and slowly it will form to a bigger pool.

So the main question I guess is that if you choose to learn from another, do you get 1 or 2 advanced action cards.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 16, 2013, 8:00 am
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by teleogryl

twibs wrote:


So the main question I guess is that if you choose to learn from another, do you get 1 or 2 advanced action cards.


It's one advanced action card. The first sentence of the rules is:

"When advancing to a level marked with these icons,
you get one new Skill token and one Advanced Action
card from the offer."

I can see your interpretation but I think everything else in that section is explaining how you choose your one skill/one card:

"Flip the top two Skill tokens from your Skill deck. You have two options now:
• Take one of these two tokens and put the other in
the Common Skills area. In addition, take any one
Advanced Action card from the Advanced Action offer.
• Take a token of another player from the Common Skills
area (if there are any), then put both of your revealed
Skills in the Common Skills area. In addition, take the
Advanced Action card from the lowest position on the
Advanced Action offer."

...so both bullets start with 'do something with skills' then say 'in addition, take a card'.

As a clincher, the final sentences refer to 'the newly gained Action' and 'adding a new card'. There's no mention of 'cards'.

"• In both cases, put the newly gained Skill in front of
you (face up), put the newly gained Action card on top of
your Deed deck, then refresh the Advanced Action offer (by
moving cards down and adding a new card to the topmost position)."
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 16, 2013, 8:22 am
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by twibs

Ya, they're explained bit better in the real rulebook than in the walkthrough. Too hasty to ask.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 16, 2013, 12:04 pm
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by ira212

From a game balance perspective, you incur a slight penalty for taking one of the skills on offer (a larger selection pool) instead of from the pool of your 2 drawn skills.

Another way of thinking of it:
a) Pick from 2 skills, and pick from 3 action cards
b) Pick from 2+X skills, and get 1 action card without picking

Since you know what all the skills and actions cards in advance, though, I find that this rarely a painful choice.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 17, 2013, 6:36 am
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by Anduin

ira212 wrote:

Since you know what all the skills and actions cards in advance, though, I find that this rarely a painful choice.


if you level up and you REALLY want that one specific AA but you also really want that skill in the offer... well, this choice can be quite hard to make
And afterall: a level up should not be "disadvantaging" or "painful". So taking a sill from the common offer is just combined with a small drawback. Everything else would make the common offer unusable.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 23, 2013, 2:44 am
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by Fexx

just as usual: A game of Mage Knight raises questions about the rules :)

1) The combination of Tovak's Mana exploit and Arytheas Polarization:
If Arythea uses Polarization, which color does count for Tovak's Mana exploit skill? It was discussed in http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/828238/mana-exploit-skill (also some gold black problem was mentioned), but no "official" answer.

2) Norowas Leadership:
It can only be used to provide something the unit already has. However, in the attack phase all attacks (normal/ranged/siege) count as normal attack, so the catapults can be given +2 attack with this. What are the rules in the first phase? Can the catapults be given +1 ranged attack, because they have siege attack? Strictly speaking, the rules don't allow, because catapults don't have ranged attack. But we always thought of siege attack to be better than ranged attack (that's why it has lower values usually), so this would be a disadvantage of siege attack.
I found a thread about this (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/921418/norowas-leadership-sk...) but it didn't give an official answer.

3) Goldyx Flight:
Can it be used to fly over seas/mountains? It does not say so in the text, and usually if something allows you to travel over otherwise inaccessible terrain, it is explicitly stated.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 23, 2013, 10:10 pm
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by leshrac55

Fexx wrote:

just as usual: A game of Mage Knight raises questions about the rules :)

3) Goldyx Flight:
Can it be used to fly over seas/mountains? It does not say so in the text, and usually if something allows you to travel over otherwise inaccessible terrain, it is explicitly stated.


I can answer this one definitively: Yes, you can fly over mountains and lakes. It's a very good skill. =)

My guess for the other two would be 1) I would think the "original" color would be the one that mattered, and that you would not be able to add "ranged" attack to the Siege attack (it says so specifically).
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 8:32 am
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by ira212

I think the biggest issue is that the original post hasn't been updated in months. I think we need a new moderator to keep it updated. There are many great questions being asked. The specific answers don't matter too much as long as everyone can find the same answers and play by the same rules. Is someone willing to take over the updating of the original post?

leshrac55 wrote:

Fexx wrote:

just as usual: A game of Mage Knight raises questions about the rules :)

3) Goldyx Flight:
Can it be used to fly over seas/mountains? It does not say so in the text, and usually if something allows you to travel over otherwise inaccessible terrain, it is explicitly stated.


I can answer this one definitively: Yes, you can fly over mountains and lakes. It's a very good skill. =)

I agree with your opinion, but on what basis is your answer "definitive?"

leshrac55 wrote:

My guess for the other two would be 1) I would think the "original" color would be the one that mattered,

Agreed.

leshrac55 wrote:

2) that you would not be able to add "ranged" attack to the Siege attack (it says so specifically).

I agree you can't add Ranged attack to Siege attack to eliminate a fortified enemy. But, you can treat the Siege attack like Ranged attack, then add more Ranged attack, and use it to eliminate a non-fortified enemy. The quote you reference "specifically" refers to the former case, not the latter, as far as I can tell.

I hope this helps!
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 9:39 am
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by DaviddesJ

ira212 wrote:

But, you can treat the Siege attack like Ranged attack, then add more Ranged attack, and use it to eliminate a non-fortified enemy.


There's nothing in the rulebook that would let you "treat the Siege Attack like Ranged Attack".
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 12:36 pm
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by ira212

DaviddesJ wrote:

ira212 wrote:

But, you can treat the Siege attack like Ranged attack, then add more Ranged attack, and use it to eliminate a non-fortified enemy.


There's nothing in the rulebook that would let you "treat the Siege Attack like Ranged Attack".

I believe the design intent is that Siege Attack is strictly superior to Range Attack. There should never be a time when Siege Attack is somehow worse than Range Attack.

Design intent aside, here is a quote from the Walkthrough, page 10.

Walkthrough, bottom of Page 10 wrote:


The following diagram shows three correct ways to generate Range Attack 5.

...

In the 2nd example, we use two Units, one of them with Siege Attack. That's right, we can combine Siege and Ranged Attacks.

I believe the implication is that we can "combined Siege and Range Attacks" ... "to generate Range Attack 5." Therefore, Siege attack can indeed be treated like Range Attack.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 1:09 pm
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by DaviddesJ

ira212 wrote:

I believe the design intent is that Siege Attack is strictly superior to Range Attack.


Why would you believe that, when the rules don't say that?
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 1:23 pm
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by vacatnskies

DaviddesJ wrote:

ira212 wrote:

I believe the design intent is that Siege Attack is strictly superior to Range Attack.


Why would you believe that, when the rules don't say that?


I may be wrong but I think there is never a situation where siege attack cannot be used as range attack (i.e. I don't think there are any skills or AA's that modify ranged attack specifically or times when ranged attack can be played and siege attack can't), but the reverse is not true (i.e. Ranged attack cannot be used against fortified enemies while siege attack can). Whether this is the intent or future rules may change this, not sure.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 1:45 pm
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by Rainstar

DaviddesJ wrote:

ira212 wrote:

I believe the design intent is that Siege Attack is strictly superior to Range Attack.


Why would you believe that, when the rules don't say that?


Please note the use of the word "intent" in that sentence.

And seriously David, as a mathematician, are you going to argue that Siege Attack isn't better than Range Attack? They are identical in function except for a single difference which favours Siege Attack.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 1:48 pm
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by DaviddesJ

Rainstar wrote:

And seriously David, as a mathematician, are you going to argue that Siege Attack isn't better than Range Attack?


Sometimes it's better and sometimes it's worse.

One way that Siege Attack is worse than Ranged Attack is that Norowas's Leadership skill increases Ranged Attack, but not Siege Attack.

You can't just assume that it's always better and use that to argue that in the cases where it's not better that it should be.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

May 24, 2013, 1:57 pm
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by ira212

DaviddesJ wrote:

ira212 wrote:

I believe the design intent is that Siege Attack is strictly superior to Range Attack.

Why would you believe that, when the rules don't say that?

Game balance, and good game design.

Design intent isn't about merely reading the rules (though that's part of it). Design intent is about imagining the best and most elegant game possible, and interpreting the rules in that way.

If you're looking for specific examples in addition to what I quoted previously, consider the flexible cards that provide Siege Attack or Range Attack, or parallel cards that give one or the other. Those cards never provide MORE Siege Attack than Range Attack. Examples include:
Crushing Bolt vs. Swift Bolt
Ritual Attack
Burning Power/Freezing Power vs. Day/Night Sharpshooting


David, are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you actually think that the designer intended for Siege Attack to be as good or better than Range Attack in all cases except for this one skill?
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