by Luce
That's exactly where the question arose. The only thing in the rulebook is "If X, then Y." After using the ability, X is no longer true. So what is there to suggest "then Y"?↧
Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by jsciv
DaviddesJ wrote:
It's a unit with that attack type, so it gets that bonus. If you do something that affects it later, well, it still already has the bonus. It seems pretty clear to me but I can't give you an "official" answer.
Here's what the rules say about special effects: "Unless a restrictive effect is otherwise stated, you may play additional combat effects (that affect your Units, enemies, or combat rules) during any of these phases. Unless stated otherwise, that effect persists until the end of the turn."
Now, let's skip to the Block Phase section: "After performing any Ranged and Siege Attacks, the Block phase begins. In this phase, all enemies that have not been eliminated get to attack..."
There is no mention before that of the attack value of an enemy, so it seems to me that if Wolfhawk plays her ability during the Ranged and Siege Attack Phase (or any time before you decide to total up the attack of an enemy) then the new effect would apply. So I would rule in the above scenario that removing the element would mean that the +2 is NOT applied.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Faso74it
I agree with David, but I don't know why.The attack value is +2 because it was Ice; now it's not Ice anymore, but it was increased, and stays increased.
In another sense, it seems unfair to me to play differently than what David suggested.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by tumorous
Faso74it wrote:
I agree with David, but I don't know why.
The attack value is +2 because it was Ice; now it's not Ice anymore, but it was increased, and stays increased.
In another sense, it seems unfair to me to play differently than what David suggested.
The attack value is +2 because it was Ice; now it's not Ice anymore, but it was increased, and stays increased.
In another sense, it seems unfair to me to play differently than what David suggested.
I don't see how the rulebook differentiates between ongoing or immediate effects in a way that allows us to definitively answer this question.
Is the city ability provided once and therefore a lasting effect that wouldn't be undone? Or an ongoing effect that could be undermined by cutting off its "if-then" application?
Both sorts of effects can exist in other games, so neither is sure to be the correct answer unless an official source points us in one direction or the other.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Faso74it
I see your point. I'll try to make mine clearer.Enemies in a city are tougher. Each city grants an "ability" to its inhabitants. (note also that different cities have more chances of having inhabitants that benefit from the particular city bonus).
"Know your enemy" helps overcoming enemies removing one special ability.
This particular monster in the blue city had an ice attack; so it got a +2 on its attack.
If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).
Because of this I feel it sounds "unfair" this behaviour.
But I do agree it is open to interpretation.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by jsciv
Faso74it wrote:
This particular monster in the blue city had an ice attack; so it got a +2 on its attack.
If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).
If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).
You're assuming that there's an order: that the attack value is determined before abilities have a chance to activate. I would again point to the rules not mentioning attack until the Block Phase (the term "attack value" isnt' even mentioned until step 6, which is also where Swiftness is mentioned) and that special abilities can be used any time and last until the end of the turn.
Furthermore, with both Elusive and Cumbersome we have effects that alter enemy stats (block and attack): they specifically do so in the Block Phase, not before. So in my mind that's further evidence that removing the Ice element from the attack would be done before determining the attack value (since that would appear to be done in the Block Phase).
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Luce
Faso74it wrote:
I see your point. I'll try to make mine clearer.
Enemies in a city are tougher. Each city grants an "ability" to its inhabitants. (note also that different cities have more chances of having inhabitants that benefit from the particular city bonus).
"Know your enemy" helps overcoming enemies removing one special ability.
This particular monster in the blue city had an ice attack; so it got a +2 on its attack.
If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).
Because of this I feel it sounds "unfair" this behaviour.
But I do agree it is open to interpretation.
Enemies in a city are tougher. Each city grants an "ability" to its inhabitants. (note also that different cities have more chances of having inhabitants that benefit from the particular city bonus).
"Know your enemy" helps overcoming enemies removing one special ability.
This particular monster in the blue city had an ice attack; so it got a +2 on its attack.
If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).
Because of this I feel it sounds "unfair" this behaviour.
But I do agree it is open to interpretation.
There are other cards in the game that negate multiple things - for example, Expose removes all fortification, even if it's double fortified.
I've had occasions in the blue city where all tokens but one had physical attack only. This wasn't unfair - I got lucky that time around. If physical attack was meant to be boosted by the city, it would be boosted by the city.
Furthermore, if we were in the red or green city and Know Your Enemy was used to remove fire or ice attack, would you say that that token would therefore get brutal or poison, respectively? I think that they would since physical attacks delivered by enemies in that city are brutal/poison. By your logic, they would not.
I appreciate all the thought going on around this problem. I think both solutions are valid interpretations of the rules as written. The problem is is that there's no definition of what the city effects care about. Do they only care about what's printed on the card? Or is there a point at which the city effects "lock in" and changes made before that point impact how the tokens are affected by the city? This is a situation that didn't exist in the base game and the rules don't account for it in the expansion.
Man, I shoulda made a thread for this one instead of FAQin' it. Does Paul, Flip, or Vlaada check this thread still? Might the question be more likely to get their attention as a separate thread?
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by pabula
Luce wrote:
Man, I shoulda made a thread for this one instead of FAQin' it. Does Paul, Flip, or Vlaada check this thread still? Might the question be more likely to get their attention as a separate thread?
Yes you should :)
My opinion, enemies get their bonus just after they are revealed in the city. Thus they have their attack increased even if you remove the elemental power of their attack.
But I'm also not "official".
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by DaviddesJ
pabula wrote:
edit:
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
I would say no. I have the feeling this has been discussed before, but I'm not going to search for it now.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by ricky2002
Note: Ice Attack, Fire Attack, Ice Cold Attack are not abilities, they are attack types, if that assists with the debate (not sure that needs clarifying, but just in case, since folks are talking about "abilities") :)Meanwhile, I would play that if an effect removes Ice/Fire Attack from a defender whilst in the Blue City then the defender would not get/keep/have the +2 attack bonus.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Faso74it
DaviddesJ wrote:
pabula wrote:
edit:
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
I would say no. I have the feeling this has been discussed before, but I'm not going to search for it now.
And what about an Ice Attack in the Green City, that gets deprived of its Ice quality by Wolfhawk's Know Your Enemy skill? Would it become poisonous?
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by ricky2002
Faso74it wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
pabula wrote:
edit:
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
I would say no. I have the feeling this has been discussed before, but I'm not going to search for it now.
And what about an Ice Attack in the Green City, that gets deprived of its Ice quality by Wolfhawk's Know Your Enemy skill? Would it become poisonous?
Yes, because Know Your Prey explicitly says the attack type becomes "Physical" and Green City says all defenders with Physical attack gain Poison. I would resolve these things at the point the attack type, abilities and bonuses are required (i.e. when the attack happens).
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Faso74it
ricky2002 wrote:
Faso74it wrote:
And what about an Ice Attack in the Green City, that gets deprived of its Ice quality by Wolfhawk's Know Your Enemy skill? Would it become poisonous?
Yes, because Know Your Prey explicitly says the attack type becomes "Physical" and Green City says all defenders with Physical attack gain Poison. I would resolve these things at the point the attack type, abilities and bonuses are required (i.e. when the attack happens).
Then I have to modify my opinion about the OP:
If Know Your Enemy deprives a monster token of its Ice Attack in the Blue City, it also deprives it of the +2 granted by the City itself.
This way the behaviour of KYE is consistent.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by pabula
hm, Prayer of Weather is also triggered instantly.So maybe you convinced me that enemies loose their bonus...
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by pabula
DaviddesJ wrote:
pabula wrote:
edit:
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.
I would say no. I have the feeling this has been discussed before, but I'm not going to search for it now.
Yes it was:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8558432#8558432
The answer is yes.
So if that is true, then we have the same situation here.
The enemy is not only loosing the elemental power but also the bonus of the city. (or in some other city - he gains that bonus :) )
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Luce
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/11534314#11534314We can move our discussion to the dedicated thread. :) Thanks for all the discussion on this so far.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Fexx
hey! another game of MK, and new questions popped up :)* There is a spell which says something like "The enemy loses fortified". Does this mean he only loses the fortification bonus printed on the token (if present), or also the one he may have from its location? I am asking since there is an effect which explicitly states that the enemy does not benefit from the location fortification.
* If I play Maximal Effect with Improvisation, do I have to discard two/three cards to gain the effect two/three times? In the FAQ it is mentioned that Maximal Effect "copies the text", so my guess is yes, but I wanted to be sure.
* Is it possible to play the strong version of Concentration on Maximal Effect, and then get the +2 Bonus (+3 for Goldyx on Will Focus) for the Effect which Maximal Effect multiplies? I.e. a total of 10 Movement for playing Concentration on Max. Eff. on some Move card.
Thanks in advance.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Faso74it
1) Yes, the lose ALL fortifications. See http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8463502#84635022) Yes
3) No, Concentration's text is quite clear: if the effect gives Attack, Block, Influence or Move, then add +2 (+3 for Will Focus).
But the stronger effect of Maximal Effect doesn't give any of them.
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by DaviddesJ
Faso74it wrote:
3) No, Concentration's text is quite clear: if the effect gives Attack, Block, Influence or Move, then add +2 (+3 for Will Focus).
But the stronger effect of Maximal Effect doesn't give any of them.
But the stronger effect of Maximal Effect doesn't give any of them.
I don't think it's clear from the card at all. Nor is it in the FAQ, nor is it clarified in the new expansion rulebook. If anything, the new rules suggest the opposite, i.e., it says, "Playing the stronger effect of Maximal Effect with Determination card provides Block 10," so if you look at the text of Concentration, "If that effect gives you Move, Influence, Block or any type of Attack, get that amount plus 2," then it would seem that Concentration/Maximal Effect/Determination would provide Block 12.
But it's been said before in this thread that it doesn't. Perhaps it's the difference between "gives" and "provides".
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Reply: Mage Knight Board Game:: Rules:: Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread
by Fexx
Thanks. Three new questions:1) There is an advanced action card (probably called "Bloodlust" in the English version). It gives you Attack 2/Attack 4, but if you "take" a wound, it gives Attack 4/Attack 9. I don't know if the card literally says take, I have the German version, there it says "Wenn du eine Wunde hinnimmst...". What does the English one say?
My interpretation of this effect is that I can voluntarily take one wound card onto my hand and then get the Attack 4/Attack 9 effect. However, there is also another interpretation: I may only get this stronger effect if I took the wound due to some non-blocked enemy. Which is correct?
2) If have by now read very many different interpretations of the rule which disallows playing red/blue cards against enemies with fire/ice resistance. What I think is the following:
If an effect gives some kind of attack/block, it may be played. If it says something which affects the enemy in some way (like "The enemy will not attack" or "The enemy loses resistances/fortified"), then it will not work.
2a) Is this only true for spells, or also for basic/advanced action cards?
2b) I read somewhere in this forums that it is not possible to use effects of units which cost red/blue mana against enemies with the corresponding resistance. E.g. the Golems "Ice Block 4" against ice-resistant enemies. Is this true? I found this kind of odd.
3) One of Goldyx skills gives him +1 influence per different color of crystals he has. Is it possible to use this skill (e.g. to get +4 influence), and then spend some crystals (e.g. all), resulting with less different crystal-colors?
Thanks again in advance,
Fex
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